Wednesday, 4th November 2009 - 09:25CET
Crucifix ban is censorship - Archbishop Cremona
Archbishop Paul Cremona said today that the decision by the European Court of Human Rights to ban crucifixes was a new form of censorship.
"We have come to a situation where you can express yourself on everything, except religion," Mgr Cremona said on the PBS programme Bongu.
He said everyone should enjoy the right to show his faith through images.
Indeed, the current issue was not one between religions, but the consequence of a European ideology which wanted to remove all expression of religion, whatever that religion was.
The church, he said, had long declared that all faiths should be free to express themselves.
He never felt irritated when he saw women wearing the Burka, he said. What was offensive was that some people wanted to ban all expressions of faith and, in this case, also an expression of a nation's culture.
What if one did not like ghana (folk singing). Would one ban ghana, which was an element of culture?
The majority should have a right to express its beliefs and the minority too should not be denied its rights. But what freedom was it to ban everything? This was a new form of censorship.
Mgr Cremona said that should such a ban ever be imposed to Malta and he needed to go to hospital, he would be the first to take a crucifix with him.
COURT DECISION
The European Court of Human Rights (the court of the Council of Europe not the EU's European Court of Justice) in its ruling yesterday (Tuesday) said that Italian schools should remove crucifixes from classrooms, sparking uproar in Italy, where such icons are embedded in the national psyche.
"This is an abhorrent ruling," said Rocco Buttiglione, a former culture minister who helped write papal encyclicals.
"It must be rejected with firmness. Italy has its culture, its traditions and its history. Those who come among us must understand and accept this culture and this history," he said.
The court ruling, which Italy said it would appeal, said crucifixes on school walls, a common sight that is part of every Italian's life, could disturb children who were not Christians.
Italy has been in the throes of national debate on how to deal with a growing population of immigrants, mostly Muslims, and the court sentence is likely to become another battle cry for the centre-right government's policy to restrict newcomers.
The Vatican spokesman said he would not comment until he knew more about the ruling but Italy's powerful bishops' conference said the ruling "evokes sadness and bewilderment".
Members of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government bristled, weighing in with words such as "shameful", "offensive", "absurd," "unacceptable," and "pagan".
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Comments
I know very well that most suicides are due to some form of DEPRESSION or other – that is why its incidence on a national scale is an incomparably valuable index of happiness in the country at large. Do you know of a more reliable one? Of course not!
It is inappropriate to consider suicide as a criterion to measure "happiness" in a country. For example, according to WHO, the rate is about 0.03% of a given population, and it varies greatly between males and females within the same culture. It also varies greatly among ethnic groups within the same country.
More importantly, according to the Canadian Mental Health Association, studies have shown that more than 90% of suicides are closely related to illness. It is therefore unethical to judge whether a country is "happy" on such basis.
I have checked and I have ascertained that the northern European states (Scandinavian peninsula) where “people are happiest” have the highest official suicide rates in company with neighbouring Baltic and former Communist states!
"Also no one in the right type of mind would want to be like a northern european! For sure we have more values in life than they do! " Hmmmmm.....I'd check that statement again if I were you. According to two separate recent surveys the so called Northern Europeans are the places where there is least perceptible corruption and also the places where people are happiest. Funny don't you think, that countries with no values as you quote can enjoy these things while Catholic strongholds like Malta, Italy and Spain fail miserably.
The objects you refer to are not "gadgets". They are representations. The objection here is not in regard to these representations. The objection stems from the constitutional requirement that representations that have a religious meaning are not placed in public spaces.
The Maltese constitution requires separation of State and Church. The Maltese government has a legal obligation toward the citizen to ensure that religious representations remain inside churches and not be placed in public places. The crucifix in particular is purely and in every respect (unlike say, a statue of a patron saint) a religious symbol and should by law be removed from public places.
Instead, the Maltese government is doing the contrary. By law it requires the crucifix to be present in every classroom of every public school.
"No one is forcing anyone to be catholic or believe in something in Malta."
How free is free?
"no one...would want to be like a northern european! ...we have more values"
Such as he increasing number of dillapidated buildings? "New" roads all holed up after a mere 3 weeks since they where made?
I'm afraid you can't comment on something you've never experienced. I've been once to Switzerland (border), and what I witnessed there amazed me. The people collaborated so much together that I couldn't make a difference between a French and a Swiss.
The structures, even the way they built, they freaken stuck with the laws!
If, for instance, a new house was built, no surrounding area was damaged. Here, they take up the 4 surrounding fields to build a house. You've no idea about North Europeans.
"Let's face it just look at northern europe Finland , Denmark , Norway ect.. What culture & life do these people have?"
Suffice to say I get certain materials overseas because the locals only sell imitations or simply the cheapest (and worst) on the market.
"At least in Malta families are very close to each other. "
Ah, so true. In fact, not one day passes without the neighbourhood (and beyond) would know how I passed 80% of day.......through gossip.
"If the cross may offend the few athiests"
They shouldn't be, and I most certainly am not. The point is not who's being offended or not.
It is that people took a "right" in their hands and made it "law" (or as someone mentioned, "department policy").
You comment is an example of what I'm saying, "we're Catholics, we do what we want."
"So Catholics have the right to keep that symbol there."
Tell me where you got that right. For instance, in a computer lab, I see it fitting to have computer-related posters. Yet, we don't have such a right and not even allowed to.
But on the other hand, the Atheists should be allowed to have the same Rights as the Catholics do. An example came to the news last year when the Atheists Community in Italy paid some adverts on the local buses & hours after the first bus has gone around in the streets, The Vatican &CO. Made a judical protest to cancel those adverts Immediately. And I can bet that if this thing happens here someday, I'm afraid that not only the advert will vanish in minutes but the entire bus (After seeing some extremists (catholics) we have living here).
But that's the price to be paid for being born in a country like ours. Here reigns the saying : LA LEGGE E' DEL PIU FORTE (like the jungle) & not LA LEGGE E' UGUALE PER TUTTI (like the real democratic countries)
In your opinion the various emblems of the cross we meet in our daily activities have nothing to do with the crucifix and the cross of the Christian religion. You are entitled to hold that opinion with which I disagree. Would you please help us out by explaining this difference and would you confirm that you, and atheists in general would not object to a bare cross in our schoolrooms?
There is no need to pull any veil over the obiter dicta of your ex-judge. What is really necessary is to draw a very thick tarpaulin over the howlers by those who clamour for the removal of all traces of our official religion and of our ancient culture from our schoolrooms.
First of all, as already stated in my previous blog, it doesn't bother me if in a room there's a Crucifix or no. The discussion here is that contrary to most of the Catholics has wrote in this blog, the Human Rights' Court take in consideration everybody's HUMAN rights.
With this judgement, this Court treated everyone's rights the same. Then if you tell me that you might find it strange as a catholic, there's nothing amazing in that,cause in this country reigns an Orwell's phrase, 'All animals are equal but some of them are more equal than others'. Now if that's OK for you (I'm sure), for most of the Democratic people (like me)it doesn't.
Now Regarding the mixing between a cross & a Crucifix, in this TV interview, I heard for example that now even about the Swedish or the Finnish flags, there could be a discussion to change them because of this ruling. The cross on the Finland flag is common in most Scandinavian flags, and symbolizes Finland's hereditary link to the other Scandinavian countries. So as you can see there's nothing catholic in these CROSSES and that's the difference between the 2 things!!
You are chiding an ex-judge because, according to you, he confuses the “Cross with a Crucifix”. Do you mean to say that you, the ECHR and the Finnish atheist are objecting to the Crucifix in classrooms but not to the Cross? Everyone else would understand that all of you are objecting equally to both as “offensive” symbols.
It is usually impossible for everyone “to be treated equally”, in the sense of satisfying everybody and on every contentious issue. Civilised society has to make a choice one way or another. In democratic countries the pragmatically accepted solution is rule according to the will of the majority with respect for the reasonable rights of the minority. You are recommending the exact opposite!
According to the catholics' comments on this page, they think that cause they are in a big majority, they can do whatever they want (things like these happens only in a dictorial state). In a DEMOCRATIC country, everyone should be treated equally (first of all by the Government). This is not a case of Majority or Minority, here the argument is, you can't offend a person (or more impotant a Tax-payer) only because he's in a minority.
So according to these catholics' arguments, now the government should take off all speed Cameras, Vat receipts & all things that are introducing discipline, only because the majority of people dislike their functions!!
And finally hearing an ex-judge on a local TV confusing a CROSS with a CRUCIFIX. Or worse, how he addressed all other religions' followers with words like "jigru mas-saqajn". there's only one italian thing to say: STENDIAMO UN VELO PIETOSO!!!
Stop quibbling because, sooner or later, you will realise that you are quibbling on your own!
I don't know whether you truly do not understand what I am saying, or whether you are feigning it just so that you do not "provide ammunition to the 'enemies of the Church'".
IWhether you have really not understood already, or if you are only pretending, it is futile to keep on trying to explain it to you.
"What is very relevant is that he could not possibly METHODICALLY INVALIDATE a point that he did not even recognise - and that is why I say that he had lost his bearings".
If he really did not even recognise your point (and I'm not saying he did not), then you would be correct. However, how could you have known that he thinks he "methodically invalidated" your point before he actually said it? Do you by any chance have psychic powers?
Whether Christian Sciberras claimed that he had "methodically invalidated" my point immediately before or immediately after he asked me what that original point was is totally immaterial. What is very relevant is that he could not possibly METHODICALLY INVALIDATE a point that he did not even recognise - and that is why I say that he had lost his bearings.
"The necessity of one commentator rushing to the assistance of a stable mate could cause confusion. Why is it so necessary?".
Perhaps because I am all for truth, from wherever it comes. Unfortunately I did not know you had the power of foresight to know that someone would say he "invalidated your point" before actually writing it.
I don't know whether your computer monitor shows a different series of posts, but mine shows that Christian Sciberras said he has methodically invalidated your point AFTER you said he lost his bearings. So your comment "lost your bearings" could not have referred to his "invalidated your point" comment.
On the otherhand, your comment that he lost his bearings IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWS his comment that "we may finally conclude that you agree people's decissions may not be right (even when in majority)?".
So, given the evidence, it would seem that you DID say he has lost his bearings when he said an obvious truth.
Please read carefully your own comments, and in the right sequence.
Please read carefully my comment addressed to Christian Sciberras. It states in simple language that he must have lost his bearings not when he said an “obvious truth” but when he boasted of “methodically invalidating” my point at the same time as he was asking what my point was.
Your first “answer” was only a statement that stated the obvious (i.e. that people’s decisions may not be right). For some reason known only to you, you do not close that plain statement end with the appropriate full stop but with a question mark. There is nothing I could do apart from recommending that you revise your syntax.
Your second “answer” was no answer at all but a question. It showed that you have become so completely lost in your rhetoric that you actually have to ask me what my “original point” was. At the same time you boast incongruously that you had “methodically invalidated” that point which was not even known to you!
Do not blame me if I do not confine myself to either of the two "answers" dictated by you. My choice is to advise you to sort yourself out on your own.
Maybe you haven't noticed, but I've methodically invalidated your point. I was simply asking about your next argument.
Please understand that just as I will not take the trouble of answering any silly questions, still less will I be accepting any advice coming from you.
Please keep your faith to yourself as no one has problems with you believing in whatever you like but kindly refrain from trying to enforce them on us like we are not enforcing our belief on you.
Accept the fact that what you believe in is something that is dying by the minute and that it's your choice and freedom to believe it BUT it is also others' choice and freedom not to do so.
We can still all live happily side by side :)
(as long as we keep the religious fatanics legally under control)
So sorry that you have lost your bearings. Sort yourself out by yourself because I will not answer any more of your questions.
"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
I'm the kind of person who doesn't trust anyone humanly, except in certain conditions.
@Dr Franis Saliba - So given your reply, we may finally conclude that you agree people's decissions may not be right (even when in majority)?
"Now take out your calculator and re-asses your majority and your minority in the light of The Times on-going poll where your atheists and their allies are earning a dismal 13% of the poll. "
This makes your argument irrelevant of majority or whatnot. So, then what was your original point?
You cannot say that I “know” that Kevin Cassar has a very good point when I have just spent a whole comment denying it! I have never said anything that could be twisted by you into any approval on my part of Muslims killing their own kin in the name of their religion – so there is no need for me to reply to an allegation based on false premises. Similarly I would not agree with any church, that blatantly, and against God, censored and attacked physically those agreeing with the truth – but you would have to substantiate your accusation first. It would also have to be relevant to this blog. I would not allow you to distract attention by diverting into issues unconnected with the removal of the crucifix from classrooms. I would not accept this diversionary tactic even if it is concocted by someone who professes to be a Catholic. Some other time, perhaps.
He actually has a very good point, and you know it.
So, Doctor, do you agree with Muslims killing their own kin in the name of religion? And in parallel, do you agree with how the Church has blatantly, and against God, censored and attacked (even physically) anyone agreeing to the truth? The only truth the Chruch saw is what made up. But those were other ages.
Regards,
Christian Sciberras.
The archbishop was very much against censorship in February during Carnival season, right?
Oh wait, he wasn't. And neither were any of his people. So the word "hypocrite" comes to mind.
God bless the Curia (sic).
Please be relevant. This blog is about an interpretation of an ECHR preliminary judgement against Italy and as it could be applied to Malta with a population of just about 400000 not your billions. Now take out your calculator and re-asses your majority and your minority in the light of The Times on-going poll where your atheists and their allies are earning a dismal 13% of the poll.
You invite "Ok. Let the hate mail pour in". Sorry! Not worth the waste of adrenaline. Would you accept "pity" instead?
@Marylu d”Agostino
Genuine rights, as opposed to “pretended rights” are those conferred by the laws. Judges interpret these enacted laws differently and according to their fashion. That is why these decisions are subject to review by other courts. If the law, as interpreted by judges, is found to be unsatisfactory it is repealed and new ones are enacted. And the legislators that enact these laws are those elected democratically by the electoral majority. You are counting your chickens before they are hatched.
"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
PS I do think that the person who can least shout 'censorship' on this island is the archbishop. His record where freedom of expression is concerned is not exactly squeaky clean.
Truth need not be loud, how very interesting of the church to talk of censorship and the churchgoers to write in CAPITALS! Not in my name.
Being catholics does not mean foolish or idiots, no masks are falling except yours. Trying to play on our christian feelings would not change an inch of your attempt to take our rights. We are catholics but we will defend what is our rights and since we live in a democracy we are the majority and the majority wins. Why are you so afraid of the crucifix ? You shouldn't be, If you are strong in your convictions, afterall its a piece of wood as those like you like to refer to the cross just to hurt our feelings.
Off course we all pay our taxes we are all equal, but that does not mean that those who voted for the opposition in the general election see their party in power. Those in favour of the crucifix are the overwhelming majority and they have their rights and we shall not give in our religious symbols to accomodate an insignificant minority.
PS - For your information I am no church goer nor infuenced by any priest whatsoever, I am anticlerical, but still Roman catholic and although I hate the church as institution my reasoning is not poisoned
@estelle grech - It isn't about being bothered or not. It is just that descrimination is present when someone actively puts a symbol in a public place.
@C.Busuttil - Taking away holdiays is a completely different situation. Holidays are...holidays which even in certain muslim countries are celebrated. I don't think Carnival or Haloween are Catholic, are they?
And the opposing army didn't fight under another symbol, of a crest and a star? What would have happened if both symbols weren't present?
Why do I have to care of what the majority feels? If they want the crosses to stay, so be it. Still, it doesn't mean it is the best thing to do.
As to who (correction; what) is the EU? It is a body of protocols and agreements, which you (as a society) decided to stick with.
Besides, you know which are the current strongest currencies? No need to speak more about who's powerful.
As to the majority, I wish you are right. At least the Maltese GET TO DECIDE ON SOMETHING for once in a while.
Allura x'jaghmlu Sweden, Norway etc jekk jitawx il-barra l-Insara Jien x'jimpurtani. Hawn Malta qeghdin subject closed. X'Jaghmlu pajjizi li meta ahna l-maltin konna nghixu f'djar u konna civilizati mentri huma kienu barbari jghixu fl-gherien jien naqa w nqum. L-Argument bazwi tas-soltu tal-psuedo liberali li tinqdew bil-minoranzi taparsi ghandkom xi appogg. Hlief erba hawn fuq dan il-blog taparsi politically correct ma smajtx favur din id-decizjoni. Imma hemm barra fid-dinja reali u mhux virtwali li hawn minn jahseb li jghix fiha l-fatti huma differenti milli tixtiequ ntom.
Nerga nghid hawn Malta qeghdin, xejn ma nghidlek hudu cans provaw nehhu l-Kurcifis u naraw. Ahna f'pajjizna qeghdin dejjem konna Nsara u minn mhux kuntent huwa liberu li jitlaq. Il-maggoranza Assoluta tal-Maltin kontra din id-decizjoni u l-ebda anglu kustodju mhuwa ha jipprova jimponi r-rieda ta' erba qattes. Aktar ma naqra l-kummenti taghkom aktar konvint li ghandkom biza kbira mill-Kurcifiss ghax forsi dik il-kuxjenza tnigges!!!!!!!!!!!
Kburi li Malti Kburi bil-Kurcifiss
This country will keep the crucifix not matter what the Lisbon treaty says after all it will remain the old toothless EU. This is Malta and we accept no impositions especially from the EU. The Italians do what they like within the EU, no rules seems to bother them and they have already stated that the crucifix will remain there whatever they say.
@Chris Vidal
The ruling by the European court is nothing less than the opinion of some atheist judge who is biased against the Catholic faith it does not take much imagination to understand that. Malta should seek the removal of this judge or judges it will send a signal and if they don't want to loose their salary next time they will think twice before before putting their personal opinions into delicate issued. Catholics have their rights that these atheist wish to trample only at the end of their lives to repent and seek absolution. Nero persecuted the Christians like others after him, Today the Church is still alive while Nero and the others are dead!!!!!!
First of all can you illuminate us by telling to who you're referring when you say: we were here first (we're not in a F1 race)?
But the most important, can you tell us who gives you the power to say LEAVE THIS COUNTRY. Maybe you inherit it & we ignored that ? You can use that kind of tone, if someone tries to move in your house but in a country were ALL citizen pays taxes, the state is FORCED to see that everyone's rights are EQUAL.
Ok let's take off the crucifix from classrooms, however parents have to make a declaration that their children should not have any lessons in religion and that they don't want the crucifix in the classroom. Besides these children should have no Christmas and Easter holidays, its only fair since they are not entitled to such holidays since they are Catholic holidays.
Since you have a healthy lifestyle from which to lecture the rest of us poor mortals, May I suggest to you to learn about the history of this country since its seems that through your healthy lifestyle you have skipped the history of this nation. Catholic symbols are part of our heritage. Under the symbol of the crucifix our ancestors fought against being carried into slavery. The great majority of the maltese is against such ban whatever the EU says. Afterall who is the EU to decide for us? no wonder that it is so powerless, so useless and if the they don't like and try to impose we have the VETO. Ignore the EU is the solution like other countries do.
But what do we expect. The attempts have been made to destroy the powers of the christian church (especially the catholic), through communism to lay the foundation of the 'European Super state'. The state, now that the Lisbon treaty is signed will adminster itself on a communistic model. Hence will not tolerate any crucifix, the name christ or Jesus or any symbols to remind children of his existence.
Thanks for the insight. For me it is all about child psychology and not about the ability to explain death to a young child. Jesus Christ was effectively tortured and murdered according to the practices of the Roman Empire of those times which are nowadays unimaginable, even hard to digest myself as an adult. And to explain God's love in such a sacrifice of his own Son would in my opinion terrify a young child unnecessarily. The day will come when he will understand the enormity of it all. My point was that the visual has more impact on children than any other kind of understanding.
@ J Saliba
No, my child is not the first 5 year old who went inside an old church. And not the first one who asked questions or was impressed by the pictures, I'm sure. As a child, I was impressed too. Now I see the fine art and culture. There are churches that better meet the needs of young minds, so I am not depriving my children of the Christian faith nor of the Christian atmosphere.
Let everyone know that the Malta Constitution aknowledge that Roman Catholic Religion is the prime faith of the country....so we do not have any worries that our Government...whoever that may be...will tell us to remove crucifixes and Sacred images from schools and public places. Like the Australian Prime Minister said a few months ago....we were first here..the rest if they don't like our system they are free to leave the country.
Not to mention that the survey was carried out by an Independent company ZUCKERMAN not like the church use to do, cause normally when the Vatican needs a survey, they ask their newspaper L-AVVENIRE to do it, that's so credible.
So in your own scenarios Mr. Spiteri or Mr. Galea l, for example Norway,Sweden & Denmark should kick out their catholic citizens cause they are in a minority !!!
The more I hear people like you speak , the more I enforce my ideas.
The church is taking some of its own medicine.
The church itself told us to accept everyone as he is, and that we should go out of our ways to help these poor people settle in our Europe. As they said we are all brothers and sisters in the eyes of God. So what is this fuss all about? Why the church cannot adjust to this rule to make these poor people settle in Europe much better?
Annalisa Debono - You are right. In fact, that is the exact reason why these "important symbols" should be removed from public places.
Galea. L - Yours, yours, yours. You don't own a thing, and which you do is as much as mine. I very much do not want people to leave because of YOUR beliefs.
Mario H Calleja - How ironic. So, you want religion to be removed as a school subject and then a cross put in each classroom? What exactly is your point? Making Christianity fossilzed history?
Do people really have to be constantly reminded by their religion with a cross in each class?
WHERE DOES YOUR FAITH LIE?
In that punny/material symbol on a classroom wall?
AND YOU CALL YOURSELF CATHOLICS?
See writings like those of MARIO SPITERI.
For this 'person', only those thinking like him can comment or live here. For your info. I'm not Buddist , I'm Maltese like you, I pay TAXES like you (hopefully you pay them) so if I go in a public place & there's something irritating me, the state HAVE to safeguard my ideology. I pity people with your mentality cause like the italian says : PREDICI BENE, RAZZOLI MALE.
Thanks to people like you, everyday the amount of Atheists around the world is increaing at an impressive rate. To give you an idea (something REAL & not on FAITH) in Germany this year was introduced a law. Anyone who wants to be anti-baptised can(by request), & you know something, 15% already did (to use another italian phrase, CARTA CANTA)
I think you are wrong about the USA you mean the UK, contrary to what one may believe the USA is very conservative, Obama and his liberals only took advantage from the recession, just in last Tuesday elections the republicans are making a comeback. Christians in the USA exert enormous influence while muslims especially after the 11/9 will not open their mouths as it will fuel the antimuslim feeling that in the States is very high and not without a reason.
Il-buddisti dahlu fin-nofs ghax S. Calleja il-hin kollu jinqeda bihom biex jipprova jghati sahha lil argument tieghu. Naf lil buddisti qatt mhuma ser jifthu halqhom dwar il-kurcifiss imma sfortunament hawn dawn it-taparsi politically correct li jindqew b'kollox. Probabli li dahlu l-buddisti ghax l-islam mhix xi religjon pacifika anzi l-problema ta' din id-dinja hija dik ir-religjon mibnija fuq il-violenza mill-fundatur taghha stess.
L-islam jibzaw minnhom ghax dawk mhux l-insara jekk toffendi r-religjon taghhom joqtluk. L-istess politically correct qatt ma jaghmlu xi protesta fit-toroq dwar id-drittijiet ta' l-insara fil-pajjizi Gharb jew dwar id-drittijiet tan-nisa fil-pajjizi Gharb. In-nisa ewropej iriedu jilbsu l-velu ma rashom fil-pajjizi taghhom ghax ikun hemm xi ragel Gharbi mkella w l-istinti seswali tieghu ma jkollux kontrol fuqhom ghax jara mara bla velu, dik ir-ragjun li johorgu biha imma l-politically correct silenzju shih fuq dan. U ahna nriedu nnehhu l-Kurcifiss ghax ikunu offizi jekk jaraw bniedem qed imut fuq Kurcifiss, min jaf ghaliex forsi ghax huma s-soltu bniedem joqtluh b'xi bomba !!!!!!!!
On the other hand, unlike in Malta and the rest of Europe, Christian (including Catholic) churches in the U.S. have full congregations on Sundays and and volunteers make a important contributions to the community. American churches are also full of people of all ages rather than a handful of old men and women as tends to be the case in Europe and increasingly also in Malta. The last time I was in Malta and went to mass I got the impression that religion in Malta is all rhetoric and little substance.
As soon as a young child has developed enough to start asking questions about death and about the Crucifix his responsible parents should have acquired the ability to guide and explain, in a language suited to the child’s age, the expression of God’s love towards mankind implied in Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. That failure in parental duty towards their own children does not justify a demand that all other families be deprived of bringing up their children in a Christian atmosphere.
The cross in the school room is culture. It is the spiritual life we feed our children through their life that counts. The tradition and culture that we carry in our hearts will live on only if it makes sense in the years to come. Tradition and culture are not the spirit we need from God.
Let's not be fooled once again, Religion does not equal State = Europe's message. Change is hard, but when you prepare yourself for it, it won't surprise you. My beliefs do not depend on seeing the cross, they are within me and no-one can ever take them away. Peace to all.
They would never get rid of Christmas. It simply makes too much money. That is the problem with our society. Taf x' jonqos issa? Li nispiccaw bhall-Amerika, f'riklam jew programm ma tistax tghid 'Happy Christmas' imma trid tghid 'Happy Holiday' ghax jiehdu offiz!!
Not even the basics, The cross was never a pagan symbol it was the most humiliating death sentence one could receive and it was not reserved for Pagan Roman citizens, however since Jesus died on that cross it became Christian and a sign for the oppressed who will find salvation in Christ. It was God himself in 312AD that revealed to Constantine that through that sign he shall conquer.
The problem is not helped when we are told that we all worship ONE god and can, therefore, pray together. If two religions are at loggerheads, in effect that makes two gods. The two never can meet.
I speak as an atheist, a private one like all religion should be. My view is entirely objective. And objectivity is necessary in this matter.
Clearly, it would be insane not to accept this and to say it is offensive towards Christians or their beliefs. It is an airline based in an Islamic country and I shouldn't see why it should change. If we are such intolerant drastic persons that we cannot accept this, everyone would agree it's not the airline policy that should change but us.
Surely people in favour of the crucifix being removed would agree with the above. rightly so. Would it cause havoc if a western airline introduces crucifixes on its planes? Is this a case of two weights two measures? Let's not kill cultural differences, which make the world such an interesting place, in the name of political correctness.
The fallacy enshrined so dearly by so many atheists, is the assumption, that religion, had the social function, to provide answers as to how the Earth and Universe originated! Moreover, they say, that in the past, religion was used to explain many natural phenomena now attributed to nature.
What these pitiful people fail to understand, is that, religions, including Christianity and Judaism, evolved and have grown into complex and sophisticated belief systems. Since the old testament, the personal intimate relationship with God, was always central. The creation of the universe was only a means by which one could discover God.
It is simply illogical to pretend God to act as a science teacher to establish his religion. God used what people imagined about the creation of the universe, and that is only logical.
Nixtieq inkun naf kif il Buddisti dahlu fil kredu! Ir-religjon Buddista li hi l-izjed religjon pacifika fid-dinja. Dawn jirrispettaw in-natura u lhlejjaq kollha u lanqas laham ma jieklu biex ma joqtlux annimali u t-taghlim taghhom hu tant gholi u mimli gherf specjalment iz -Zen li anke qassisin insara juzawh fl-omeliji taghhom (u sewwa jaghmlu).
Nahseb qed thallathom ma xi religjon ohra.
Ironic given that the cross is a pagan symbol hijacked by the Christian church !
Now Archbishop is telling that its a new form of censorship.....
But what about the case where a student was banned for writing in a university newspaper?
Isn't it a type of censorship also??....
Even secularist William P Flynn from as far away as Australia has joined in with the fray as part of his long-distance, ongoing attempt to turn Malta into a secular state, which, having a majority Catholic population will simply never happen!
Mr Flynn states:- "If it (the state) allows crucifixes to be hung, the promise of impartiality is meaningless." I think that the Maltese population will find this particular "contribution" to the debate to be meaningless.
If people do not want to acknowledge the crucifix then they may ignore it! Impartiality has all sorts of meanings to all sorts of people. People may remain impartial by accepting the fact that the crucifix is there to stay and they do not have to look at it.
However if they do look at it, perhaps they are afraid of it and afraid of being converted to Christianity!
Malta is not a secular society nor will it ever be, however much William P Flynn of Australia and those of his ilk may campaign for it!
Roman catholics have the Pope as their spiritual guide and since the Pope is no idiot on theological matters we do not need any fancy interpretation of the word of God. The Pope has spoken several times against the ban impose by the EU on the cross and for Roman Catholics that's enough since they are bound to listen to the vicar of Christ on earth.
Jien meta kont l-iskola kien hemm studenti minn barra fosthom mill-Pakistan qatt ma sabu oggezzjoni ghax fil-klassi kien hemm salib u l-anqas kienu jattendu bilfors ghall-lezzjoni fuq ir-religjon. Kienu johorgu l-barra bla paroli ta' xejn. Nhar ta' Gimgha wara nofsinhar kienu jmorru l-moskeja bla' paroli ta' xejn. Allura dawn kollha skuzi banali taghkom ghajr li biex tippruvvaw tkissru r-religjon l-ewwel tibdew mis-simboli taghha biex umbad tmorru fil-qalba. Imma hawn Malta ninsabu u hadd m'huwa ser inehhi ebda Kurcifiss min jipprova naraw kemm huwa hero. Kif kien hawn min qal kemm tibzaw minnu l-Kurcifiss ?
Fuq l-fatt li qed nara li tibzaw minnu fil-Gimgha l-Kbira mis-sena d-diehla nixghel wiehed mall-gallarija haga li qatt m'ghamilt imma nibda naghmel ha nisfida lilkom u lill-unjoni ewropeja.
Dwar l-ezempju li gibtlek tal-Festa prova nehhi xi statwa u nassigurak li jekk mhemmx ghaqda bejn zewg kazini rivali dakinhar ikunu maqghuda kontrik u tara minn banali.
With due respect, do you want to educate people or instruct them on how to use cheap dirty talk?
That newspaper had nothing except cheap dirty words. What a way to instruct University students whom we expect to be the creme de a creme of Maltese society!!!!!!!!!
http://www.timesofmalta.com/blogs/view/20090509/fr-joe-borg/should-there-be-more-mosques-in-malta
go tell that to UK,France,Holland,Sweden,Germany etc..or better wait till 2050
Undoubtedly, the ideology of secularism has gone too far. An intollerant attitude against people of faith appears to be very present both in Europe and in Malta. This is not good. Extremism, whether it comes from people of faith or from secularists / atheists / agnostics / anticlericals etc., is harmful to all of us.
In the past, feeble attempts were made to ban the burqa. It ruffled the wrong feathers. So now this. Remove crucifixes and have a level playing field. I ban mine, you ban yours. A tactic more suitable to settle a tiff between toddlers in the school-yard. But this no tiff, the players are no tots, and the playground is immense. One of the players has an agenda. Refuses to play by the rules. That would leave Europe well and truly crucified.
I've nothing against crucifixes. Most are artistically beautiful. I've a little problem with Holy Week statuary, kids in attendance. I have some problems with religion worn on the sleeve or the skull. Especially if the symbol represents an extreme lifestyle, incompatible with all around it. Christianity does not execute women who commit adultery which I think is admirable. Therefore the Cross can stay. I can not say the same thing about some others.
Il-pajjizi fejn il-Gvern jilbess is-salib jew il-qamar jew il-Buddha, per ezempju is-Saudi Arabia jew l-Afghanistan meta kinet taht it-Taliban jew Malta mitt sena ilu, m'humiex pajjizi li jattirawni. Il-gvern irid ikun ta' kulhadd mhux ta' xi knisja jew ohra.
Grazzi
L-istat jaghtik id-drittijiet bhala individwu, mhux bhala Nisrani. Li tkun Nisrani jtik l-istess drittijiet daqs dawk li m'humiex.
Is-salib lili ma joffendiniex. Li joffendini huwa l-intolleranza u s-sens ta' superjorita' li ghandhom nies Kattolici bhalek fuq din il-gzira. Din l-art hija tieghi daqs kemm hi tieghek, ghax it-tnejn li ahna Maltin, u mhux ghax it-tnejn Insara.
Ma nahsibx li tieghi paroli fil-vojt. Anzi qed inkun imparzjali, ghax nies bhalek ma jistghux ikunu peress li qed jaghmlu certu assunzjonijiet li ma jaqbilx maghhom kulhadd, bhal, per ezempju, li r-religjon Kattolika hija t-tajba u l-ohrajn huma hziena.
Ma tantx nista' nikkummenta fuq li nnehhi xi statwa minn xi festa, biex nara r-reazzjoni tan-nies. Kulhadd jaf x'daghdigha jkunu fiha certu nies fil-festa, u nispicca naqla' xi xebgha jekk naghmel hekk. Ovvjament, f'isem il-qaddis favorit taghna (u ara ssemulhom xi qaddis iehor ghax tarahom jippikaw). Ma dan-nies ma tirragunax, ghalhekk nemmen li l-ezempju li gibtli huwa banali ghal-ahhar.
I am not a constitutional lawyer but I would like to give my layman's answer to your interesting questions. The ECHR is part of the Council of Europe and its decisions do not carry legal weight in the signatory countries that are members of the Council of Europe. In other words Malta is not legally obliged to accept the decision of the ECHR as it would be if it were a decision of the EU Court of Justice. But the judgements of the ECHR have a strong moral weight. They have always been accepted by the member states and countries like Germany even amended clauses in their constitution to abide by the judgement of the Court. If Malta, in the cases you mentioned, decides to ignore a sentence of the ECHR, it can legally do so. The only result will be that Malta will become known internationally as one of those countries (e.g. Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea etc) where human rights are not respected.
Your and some others' myopic view of your own religion will be the ultimate cause of its demise. Why? Because religious fundumentalism goes precisely against the tolerance which you preach in the first place. It is exactly due to this major hypocrisy that so many people were forced to convert to Christianity in the past, but nowadays this will not be sustainable, and we are already seeing much progress in this regard on mainland Europe. Catholics may panic, but they should ask themselves why, and try to answer that rationally (i.e. without invoking satanic mythology). Unfortunately the days of the sword are over, and lacking fear of expression, the real humanity is coming out from all over the world, accepting individuals for being secular humans with all their shortcomings, respecting one another not out of fear of punishment, but out of a deep understanding of morality based on secular, humanistic values, and that includes accepting and tolerating the fact that we have different believe systems, and Catholicism is just one of the many. Being convinced of one's own religion and denigrating others will only bring about bitterness and pain, as we have seen many times over.
Is-salib hemm kien u hemm ha jibqa, nisrani kemm trid jew le dik bicca taghna u mhux tieghek. Li tkun nisrani ma tfissirx li tkun iblah u taqla go fik. Mis-seba tiehdu l-id taparsi politically correct. Mhux hekk nibqaw
L-insara ghandhom id-drittijiet taghhom ukoll u fost dawk id-drittijiet hemm is-Salib simbolu tal-fidi taghhom, min mghandux rispett lejn dak is-simbolu mghandux rispett lejn in-nies. U dawn kollha skuzi li l-buddisti jew ohrajn issibu offiza bis-salib, ghax qatt ma qalu xejn. dan argument li inti u erba ohra tinqdew bieh taparsi Korreti. U fuq kollox Kif tista ssib offiza minn bniedem qed imut fuq salib. Sa fejn naf jien Kristu dejjem tkellem fuq l-imhabba u l-paci bejn il-bnedmin. Dan il-pajjiz nisrani u minn mhux komdu jitlaq, tghid mhux ha nbidlu l-usanzi taghna minhabba erba qattes.
Hlief paroli fil-vojt hlief nofs veritajiet taparsi politically correct ma ktibtx.
U jekk trid tkun taf x'jaghmlu l-Maltin prova nehhi xi statwa tal-Madonna jew ta' xi qaddis/a li tkun armata f'xi festa u tkun taf x'jigri.....ejja sa Zurrieq u prova... naf biex hiereg dik Christian attitude, biss kun ghaf li tkun twajjeb sabih imma sakemm ihalluk kwiet jekk tipprovoka stenna reazjoni.
Europe is heading the wrong way trying to appease its increasing Muslim population.
This is apostasy and it is punishable by death in many Muslim countries.
"Don't change the cards on the table..."
This is not a game Mr Busuttil. This is a serious issue, and a healthy debate on the topic should bring up all possible arguments.
"Buddha or whatever other has nothing to do with these islands..."
Yes it does. Some people are Buddhist or Muslim, and you cannot discriminate against them. Even our constitution provides for freedom of practising any religion you feel best comfortable with (as long as you do not break the laws of course).
"...they have to respect our culture and traditions"
I don't think you're arguing in favour of culture or tradition. You're arguing in favour of your own personal religion.
"This is our Country either others abide with our customs or pack up"
You mean religion not customs. Although I understand they overlap, we cannot apply the same arguments to both, since some cultural aspects are not related to religion at all.
"The Crucifix is here to stay, u jekk x'hadd jipprova jnehhieh umbad naraw ....... "
This does not sound like a very Christian attitude to me. Imbaghad xiex?
the below is not a misquote of the word of God, but a full quote of The Bible that Roman Catholic church is supposed to follow...the second commandment.
Can one go wrong if following it? And if one doesn't follow the word of God, is he still right?
"You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God and I punish the father's fault in the sons, the grandsons, and the great-grandsons of those who hate me; but I show kindness to thousands of those who love me and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."
Don't change the cards on the table, Buddha or whatever other has nothing to do with these islands, had Malta been muslim or hindu I could accept this reasoning, those who adhere to these religions must understand that this country has through the centuries adored the Christian God therefore they have to respect our culture and traditions. Don't like they can always go back. If they find the crucifix as offensive they are offending our culture and traditions therefore this makes them unwelcome guests PERSONE NON GRATE
I am no church goer nor am I influenced by the church, however your reasoning does not make sense. This is our Country either others abide with our customs or pack up.
The Crucifix is here to stay
u jekk x'hadd jipprova jnehhieh umbad naraw .......
I am nevetheless a little bemused at the Archbishop's complaint about censorship when the church in Malta is a major promoter of such practice. I can live with the Archbishop or the church being in favour of censorship, much as I have strong reservations on the concept.
I think however that the Archbishop and the church should be consistent: they are either in favour of censorship as a concept or they are not. Being supportive of censorship when we feel offended by other's actions but then complaining when our own actions are in trun censored smacks of being self serving.
One is either in favour or
So what is wrong with this decision now?
This issue was just a matter of time.
"Why does the crucifix bother some so much? "
As a rationalist, it doesn't bother me at all. I have lived with crucifixes all around me since I was born and it didn't affect me at all. But if you insist on the crucifix, it will only be fair to allow others to put statues of Buddha and the Koran etc. Buddhists and Muslims believe their religion is the right one as much as you believe that Jesus is the son of God.
@ Michael Neville Cassar
"so I repeat that to me all other religions are baseless and they mean nothing to me. I believe in Jesus the Son of God and God himself ..."
Your inconsiderate attitude towards other religions is fundamentalist and quite fearful. Some Muslims take that attitude and we all know the results. Let's not make the same mistake as they do, and let's not compare Malta to Muslim countries when bring arguments of the sort: "if we were to do this in a Muslim country, we would be kicked out etc." Let's move towards rationality, not away from it.
I'm sure that the strong majority of the Maltese people will oppose any such decision in Malta, in the same way they opposed decisions regarding Church schools in the 1980s.
Why are established democracies being asked to apply tolerance in a manner that instigates conflicts and, worse still, discrimination?
Persons in a democratic society have an inbred conscience that allows liberty for other points of view, beliefs and opinions as long as these will not detract from the rights and freedom already enjoyed by the civilisation. It is manifestly wrong whenever someone demands that a custom, which has been enjoyed for centuries, be stopped just because it might offend the morals/beliefs of others. The solution should be a different one - one that symbolizes tolerance.
I do not believe it would be a problem to add another religious symbol on the wall of a classroom if someone requests it. In this multicultural environment and social order we have to seriously start to live and work together. Imposition of dogma on matters in which we differ should be resisted and we have to strive to create workarounds.
In my humble opinion the ECHR have got it all wrong. This sort of decision is insensitive and tactless and not conducive to a harmonious social development.
Article 2 of the Constitution of Malta says the following:
(1) The religion of Malta is the Roman Catholic Apostolic
Religion.
(2) The authorities of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church
have the duty and the right to teach which principles are right and
which are wrong.
(3) Religious teaching of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Faith
shall be provided in all State schools as part of compulsory
education.
"WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID OF THE CRUCIFIX ?"
Nobody is afraid of the crucifix. You are probably convincing yourself that we are, so you can satisfy your belief that we are evil or associated with the devil. Many believers do this continuously because they have serious doubts about their faith, and hence need constant reassurance and reminders. One such "reassurance" is convincing oneself that non-believers are afraid of the cross, hence attributing to it special powers. This is certainly not the case.
You must learn to respect not only non-believers, but also those of other faiths. It's not a question of being afraid of the crucifix. Would you be afraid of the statue of a Buddha? I presume not. You'd just feel it's not the right place to be in a classroom. Same with the crucifix, believe it or not. Some people actually believe in Buddha in the same way that you believe in Jesus. Not because they are wrong. Neither you are wrong. It's just the way you way you are brought up and instructed how and what you think (doctrine).
What's next?????? Churches ransacked????? An iconoclasm????
1) I am not afraid of the cross or any other piece of wood or cloth for that matter. What I am afraid of is that these signs are used to teach and promote ideas that make no sense. Faith and Dogma. Old times were easy for religion to prpagate as people were ignorant of science ad there were no systems which could verify news. The Bush administration put all its might against showing images of coffins returning from Iraq. When any religious zealot can show, and prove, St Anthony talking to the fish or a burnining bush unconsumed by fire, then I will believe.
2) Atheism is not islam. I never said I wanted islam. I do not like organised religion, however I will fight and die for anyone's right to practise their belief, as I do for mine (or lack thereof).
3) What is on paper and reality are two different things.
4) Comrade Lenin did actual good work by removing the ruling class (part of which was priests). Some Other atheists who did useful thing are Sigmund Freud, Richard Dawkins, George Bernard Shaw, Carl Sagan, Jean-Paul Sarte, Isaac Asimov.
They are different but this is what the explanatory document (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:303:0017:0035:EN:PDF) for the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the eu states.
“Explanation on Article 10 — Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
The right guaranteed in paragraph 1 corresponds to the right guaranteed in Article 9 of the ECHR and, in accordance with Article 52(3) of the Charter, has the same meaning and scope. Limitations must therefore respect Article 9(2) of the Convention, which reads as follows: ‘Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.’
The right guaranteed in paragraph 2 corresponds to national constitutional traditions and to the development of national legislation on this issue.”
It seems that the perceived “rights???” of minorities overcome those of majorities. Anyone bets that the eu will say that the ECHR decision also applies to eu members since the explanatory document also says that the negative aspects of the ECHR apply?
First of all if I am in a country where they adore Buddha I will not feel uncomfortable with a buddha statue.
Furthermore, this is OUR country, we have our own culture and traditions and if they don't like it they can go back to their own countries.
albert leone ganado N Xerri Emanuel Cilia Debono
If such a thing were to happen any decent Maltese government can tell them where to shove their decision.
Mariella Galea
That would be idiotic because Moslems believe in Jesus , only that he was a prophet.
Charles Sammut
How can a cross discriminate? And isn't the decision against the human rights of Christians in their own country and culture
Peter Korsten Crucifixes are on hang up in classrooms. They do not tel;l you to listen to them. Foreigners who don't like it are free to leave.
E. Inglott If they don't like it they should go to schools which practice their religion.
Joe Fenech
The situation has been brought by incompetent politicians who bend backwards to appease foreigners.
another question...will the european court give permission to tha catholics to take a 30 minutes break while they are working to hear mass and stil get payed for it like muslimx do everyday when the have to pray while working?
To you all who are blaming muslims the Italian lady is not a muslim, and the only one whom crosses did not make a difference was a muslim. those mostly protesting are mainly atheists and other religions such as hindus, etc. The muslims believe in Christ but only as a profit so why should they be offended by the cross. In future they might force their religion on us if they are increasing and we are losing are faith. God Help Us!
I am maltese and an atheist and definitely not a minority. There are thousands like me today in Malta and soon , by the end of the next decade, we will be in the majority. So treat us with respect and remove these religious symbols from all public places otherwise when the day comes that you will be in the minority yourselves you will find us to be just as intolerant . Take heed, what goes round comes round. Treat us with respect.
Is it becuase of our conscience. Do we have problems with our conscience when one looks at the crucifix. If a person does not belief in the crucifix one should not look at it and just pretent that its not there. If it is of confort to one who has faith, to a person who is lying ill in a hospital bad why deniy of such confort. So many things we see in the streets to-day that are not to our likings. What shall we do? Where is it going to end. Its not a matter of impostion. No one is imposting any one to venerat, to belief, to have faith, to pray.
And by the way Migiul speak for your self. Who said that its the majority who wants the crucifix to be remove?
Like Nuclear and chemical weapons., right !!! May I remind you that Christian Europe gave these to humanity, and no other religious dominion.
if the cross offends People of different religions have to understand that this is MALTA and not INDIA OR some muslim state. This country has been catholic since 60AD and since those times the cross has been at home in these islands. If they don't like they should pack up and leave. Besides your argument that it may offend them is ridiculous, ahassra imsieken kemm huma sensitivi xjidispjacini ghalihom u FUQ KOLLOX TOSTI f'pajjizi u ma nistax naghmel li nried.
2)Mhux hekk nibqaw, Paroli si fatti No, You will never even dare open your mouth with Islam or else .........
3 - 4)To make your argument baseless, I am no church goer, I am no christian taliban I have been anticlerical all my life, however Malta was and will remain catholic. I saw in my life many anticlericals, atheists & Co in time of need run to the church and pray infront of statues which once they ridiculed. However contrary to people like you, I am able to keep my grudges against the church from poisoning my reasoning.
If you are real atheists you should not be afraid of the cross
"2) You can be an atheist how much as you want in this country, however when this country will taken over by islam it will be a problem to be an atheist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "
But I am confused now. Archbishop Cremona and the rest of the Catholic clerics tell us that Islam is OK because they worship the same "god". This argument always gets aired whenever someone expresses concern about illegal immigration and the diversity of cultures, religions, customs, skills and skin colours it has brought to our community.
Quo Vadis Malta? The voice of our beloved Pope John Paul II, is still clear in my ears when in 1990 during his visit to Malta, he expressed his sincere feelings whilst sadly stating "Malta! Malta!"
I still remember back in the early 80s groups of people from the Catholic Action and Legion of Mary organising pirglimages to Ta' Pinu Sanctuary praying for Malta to be saved from the Labour Government. Where are they now? Have these became deaf, dumb and blind!!! No more need for prayer now!!!
No one is saying that you are not allowed to wear a cross, or have a 'jesus loves me' sticker on your car (As humorous as that is). If you like you can go out dressed as jesus for all they care... wait a minute, you can't... who's censoring who now?
Secondly, if you don't have the facts, or just want to blindly vent to the world, please do it somewhere else.
You are confusing things. The court did not rule against people expressing their belief such as by wearing a burkas or crosses in public places. The ruling was against the placing of crucifixes, buddhas, vrishnas, pictures of mohammed, etc, in one particular place: classrooms. It does not discriminate between different religions in this respect, so, objectively speaking, it is fair. Students themselves may go to class wearing their own religion's garment or symbol, and because the school itself is impartial, they will not be discriminated against, and students will hopefully learn to respect each other by example.
WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID OF THE CRUCIFIX ?
@ Robert Vagner
Stop misquoting the word of God, WE ARE ROMAN CATHOLICS, NOT SOME SORT OF CHRISTIAN SECT gone astray
"Since when are the minority allowed to dictate to the majority???"
Since we decided that certain rights are universal, and go beyond the will of the majority (please refer to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights). That is why we take care of people with special needs, and why we cannot discriminate against people of particular shapes and sizes and who do not form part of the majority. If majority were to rule in everything, then the world would be in a sad state, since everybody, in some way or another, forms part of a minority group in some aspect of his life.
Until this happens all Catholics should unite and raaley an EU wide protest on this issue.
1) People of a different religion may not feel comfortable with a crucifix, just as you will probably not feel comfortable with images of Buddha imposed on you for hours on end.
2) Same principles will apply if this country is taken over by Islam. No fundumentalism will ever be tolerated.
3) Malta is a secular state on paper. In practice, it is not because of people like you.
4) Some famous atheists have also given humanity some of the best inventions in this world, and made some of the most groundbreaking scientific discoveries. Please inform yourself before commenting, since it is clear that you are completely biased in favour of your religion and won't tolerate anything else.
Mgr Cremona, you cannot compare religion to Maltese folk singing. I have the choice not to listen to Maltese folk singing if I don't like it. But I don't have the choice of avoiding the crucifix if I go to school. This is why I agree with this ruling, which is not trying to abolish the crucifix, but merely avoiding conflicts by removing it from those places where people of different believes must come together for a different purpose, such as schooling.
Abolishing it on jewellery or other artefacts is ridiculous, however, since there the choice is up to the buyer whether to purchases or not. We must make a clear distinction between availability and imposition.
The ECHR is only a part of the Council of Europe. And as far as I know 'council' means advice (parir) so we may or may not take that advice.
Is the ECHR also banning the burka from European streets or all those wearing earrings in the shape of a cross??
This should also apply to a country. If the country is predominently catholic and the symbol is a Crucifx, which has also become part of culture, no one under the sun should interfere with this. In fact I do expect muslim traditions when I travel to a muslim country and buddism traditions when I travel to Asian countries. Why this does not apply to us Europeans?
Where are we heading? It is shameful!
How many of Christians out there, including Archbishop Cremona, obey to this second commandment ?
And what is all this fuss about Muslims? Nowhere in the article is mentioned due to any Muslim the EU has passed the law, but an ordinary EU citizen from Finland?!
I believe what is good for one, is good for another. If you take down all the crucifixs in Malta then stop the wearing of burkas etc.
Malta is a Catholic island, who are the ECHR to tell the Island they can't show it. STAND UP FOR YOURSELVES BEFORE ITS TOO LATE !
"Shorter of breath, one day closer to death.
I wonder who all those people agreeing with this crucifix ban will be calling when their hour is near."
A doctor, I hope.
But lets not forget that many Maltese were denied a crucifix and burried in unconsecrated land because they were labour supporters.
1) Why are you so afraid of the crucifix or maybe it reminds you of the teachings of the one that died on that cross? Only Satan has a good reason to fear that symbol!!!!!!!!
2) You can be an atheist how much as you want in this country, however when this country will taken over by islam it will be a problem to be an atheist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3) The Maltese republic is no secular state, want to live in a secular state you have 26 other countries from which to make your selection, but not this.
4) Shall we look at what famous atheists have done such as dear Lenin or comrade Stalin etc etc
(i) Our constitution does mention and gives privileges to the Catholic faith
(ii) Our country cannot criminilise and forbid abortions.
I say this because our opt out from allowing abortions is with the EU not the ECHR.
Funny how you quote that particular song.
Didn't you get that they are mocking religion?
"I am proud to be Christian; and I insist on this right. What next? Abolish the Crucifix from jewellery items?"
Yes, dear Antoine, abolish the Cruxifix, even from jewellery. It has happened in the UK and politically correct Malta must inevitably follow.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6051486.stm
I have no doubt that our EU licking politicians will eventually go for the EU stars instead of the cross in public places, if it is good for their political carreer. The Lisbon Treaty is the new religion. God now resides in Brussels.
I wonder who all those people agreeing with this crucifix ban will be calling when their hour is near.
2. Someone here raised the point that the Constitution says that Malta is Catholic country. I question if I am breaking the law since I am an atheist.
3. The state should be secular as this is more representative of the people.
4. Ahhhhh Paulus Appostolus. Now you are screaming censorship. Where were you and your clan when people died for their censored beliefs? I'll answer that for you, doing the killing!
What do you mean "us christians"? You Christains are a fast decling lot in Malta. The number of agnostics, atheists, pagans and other religions is rising fast and will soon become a majority.
So respect those who are now in the minority so that they will respect you when you inevitably become the minority. Today's Christians are spinning on a downward spiral of self-destruction with certain local clerics opening their mouth only to change feet.
life is made of pain and joy! If your son was afraid when he saw good friday procession, he was surely overjoyed when he saw the easter procession! these are very serious mysteries we remember each year and we are playing with them. we just think about the today and not about life! if your son was afraid..that means that you did not talk to your son about jesus who suffered for us! Moreover catechism and teaching religion is totally different! catechism is more a personal experience...an understanding of how what the children are taught at school can be an everyday experience of God's love.
regarding the eu court decision....so we'll take the crucifix down because we might have a muslim in class but we don't care about the other 25 students who are in the classroom and are catholics! this clearly shows that today's society is falling to pieces! where is unity? unity makes us stronger? no that is not how we think today! we want to give freedom of expression to that ONE child but not to the other TWENTY FOUR! come on! this is ridiculous. will muslims do the same! no they are faithful!
If in my child's class there happens to be a Muslim child I would be the one to ask the headteacher to remove the cross.
What about the much touted multiculturism? Don't muslims believe in it?
Regarding exams, you can always inform the school and your child will not have to sit for the religion exam. By the way as from next year the JL exams will not include social studies and religion.
@Paul Micallef
If you will, have a look at http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/a/Communism.htm since, as it usually happens, you’re obviously confusing communism with atheism.
@J Farrugia, Michael Neville Cassar, Marthese Zammit and the likes
As Steven Weinberg aptly put it;
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion”
From the tone of your writing I'm sure that given the chance you would honour the above.
The well wishers:
Why should others leave when it is people with your traditionalist mentality that are making Malta the laughing stock of the Europe?
Only after many years have passed since we remove crosses will people look back at these times in awe and wonder how we used to treat young children with this macabre spectacle every single time they wake up and go to class.
And to refrain and make it clear, this is NOT being done to accomodate muslims. On the other hand, this is safeguarding against muslim invasion. Once we remove catholic symbols, no muslim can beg to have his/her symbol displayed, because we display NO RELIGION.
But a court can order the organisation to allow one to fix an icon pertaining to his belief in spite of being in the minority. Did anybody deny the appelant from expressing his belief?
Denying the right of a majority does not give more rights to the minority. It is subversion.
It is my country too, and I'm not a Christian, so why should all these morbid symbols in public places be imposed on me and my non-Christian children? If you want to see crucifixes in public places, it is you who should move dear, maybe go and live in Vatican city!
No one is banning you from having crucifixes in your house. This is about respecting other people in public places. This is so typical of Christians, preaching tolerance, but in reality acting totally opposite!! How can you be so blind?!
Oh by the way, if your culture all boils down to having crucifixes up where they shouldn't be, you need to throw your culture in the garbage and start being a bit more creative and start a new positive culture.
Tomorrow my friends will be illegal migrants who would have become legalised and would impose their ways on us....
JUST THINK FOR A WHILE because we are heading there!
If this case continues Malta should adopt a REFERENDUM to have the backing of the people.
The crucifix is the symbol of Christian Europe. Had to think what Europe will look like in say 50 years. Where is a countries self determination. Big Brother is really watching and controlling every aspect of our lives. I ask, what is the purpose of democracy and interference in another countries laws when the majority cannot carry out their voice as they should.
@Emma Scicluna
Simply having a crucifix on the wall doesn't mean that your son is being taught Christianity just as walking in front of a mosque doesn't mean you are being fed Islam.
If anyone objects to his child learning any religion one is free to advise the school and the child will be exempted from the religios lesson. No problem.
God to the Emperor Constantine, October 312 A.D.
"Thou shall conquer with this sign" (The Cross)
I invite you to think of geographical regions and countries where the religion of the majority is not Christianity - Islam, Hinduism, Israelites, Buddhism. Do we ever hear of such 'bright' ideas -removing the Crucifix which is the international sign of Christianity? When we hear of checks to religions, this normally is in the form of 'political' influence by clerics of other religions. Turkey's secularity springs to mind.
European Christians already have an identity crisis; many of my generation shy away from making the sign of the cross infront of people [I applaud strikers who always seem to do so prior or after a match or after a good goal]; removing the Crucifix will push Jesus and God further away from our lives; and those who say a silent prayer occasionally when they see the Crucifix will become colder, speaking in terms of Christian beliefs.
I am proud to be Christian; and I insist on this right. What next? Abolish the Crucifix from jewellery items?
Eurpeans are trying to picture themselves as champions of freedom. But one never endanger introduction of anarchism
That way, people like bishop Cremona wouldn't be able to say Malta is catholic just because there are 100000 children in the population who were indoctrinated while their minds were unable to really understand what they were indoctrinated in and baptized when they were babies; when they had absolutely no idea what was happening.
This is about a secular state showing everyone the absence of bias by not displaying any religious symbol in any of its schools, courts, hospitals and every other government building.
If it allows crucifixes to be hung, the promise of impartiality is meaningless.
On the same note it is about time that religion exams in Primary and secondary schools are stopped. There is no need of an exam to confirm your Christianity, our children are already having their MUSEUM lessons and it is most unfair on our Christian children that have to do these exams when children of other religions don't.
I totally agree with Miguel Micallef. I had to be in the UK for the first 3 years of my sons life for health reasons. When we came back and my son saw the Good Friday Statues he was simply Terrified. When i told the doctor in London about this, she told me that unfortunately us Christians thrive when we see someone in pain and when you sum it all up she is right - one only have to watch the type of programes on our local TV
"UK with a mish mash multi-culturalism
You mean Main Culture and other sub-cultures right ! "
That's how it should be! Unfortunately there's been a cultural dilution!
Yes it's YOUR country..and look what a mess it's in!
Just like swearing being illegal I guess...
Or stopping a play because it is deemed too immoral...
Or banning a newspaper.
Or stopping a young person from wearing up as a biblical or religious person.
The tide has turned, it seems!
An archbishop speaking against censorship in Malta is the funniest thing I have read in ages. Dear archbishop... you do not want freedom of expression ( or religion ) , you just want to hold your monopoly from the "other cults".
And yeah, it seems like you are in nice company, with Silvio Berlusconi's government being suddenly sensitive for religion too..
"Censorship" is when the State suppresses human expression across the board. The issue here is not about abolishing the crucifix but about removing the crucifix from the school classroom and the school yard.
Boys and girls who do not wish to put up with "ghana" need not go to places like Buskett during "Imngharja". But by law, they are required to attend the classroom and spend one hour in the school yard during lunch. In effect, this legal obligation in the presence of the crucifix would amount to forced loyalty to a particular religion. This clearly violates a basic human right of the child.
Our obligation as Christians is to try and understand what the Nazarene stood for and died for, and not to impose images on children.
This is our country. This is our tradition. If you don't like it you are free to leave. No one shall impose their will upon us and our traditions. They know where to shove their will and decisions. Foreigners, no one sent for you. If you don't like our traditions and culture you are free to go back to your own countries for we shall not comply with their will.
M Attard
That has been our expression and that is how it shall stay. Those who don't like it don't go there.
What is ironic however is that the EU's view of religion was obvious to us way before 2003. The Church, which has waged crusades on condom wielding university students and civil marriage was strangely silent in the debates leading up to membership.
I have to ask why!?
The stark reality is that Malta has joined a club and change, sometimes painful change, is bound to occur.
You see, for all those Caholics complaing, seeing that these are the same people who vocally complain against the introduction of divorce, EU membership shouldn t be hard to understand.Its like their views of marriage...for better or for worse, and till death do you part....
http://www.timesofmalta.com/blogs/view/20091102/andrew-borg-cardona/banning-a-newspaper-in-2009
You can't have it both ways people.
Your Crucifix is my play and my newspaper
Does the decision of the European Court of Human Rights imply that Europe has lost its own sense of cultural identity, which is inextricably bound with the belief in Christianity?
Does the European Court decision imply that a minority of residents (including some who have lost their Christian values) may- with the force of law- impose their non belief on believers. In my opinion this is an absurdity- the rule of law turned upside down. The traditional maxim has always been 'when in Rome do as the Romans do.
It is one thing to respect the right of a person to practise one's own belief (or non belief) , and it is another to offend the majority of believers by seeking to 'impose' one's own disbelief ( under the guise of being 'tolerant').
Have we reached the height of intolerance where a few can no longer live with a symbol of the nation' s cultural identity, merely because they themselves do not believe or no longer believe in it ?
In my opinion the Italian Government should seek a revision of the faulty decision of the European Court by all legal means at its disposal .
Except in this case, as M Attard has very well said before me, nobody is denying anybody the right to express themselves through images or otherwise. It is only public places paid for by the taxpayer that must be secularised, as nobody has the right to subject anybody to any religious symbolism, even if it's part of "our" culture.
The problem in our society is that we have reduced our religion to just another school subject. It is to be studied for an examination in which good marks are needed. It is a subject where our children have to go through to qualify for the sacraments.
The approach is totally wrong! You do not sit for examination in Religion. You are not a Catholic just because you passed this examination. I am afraid that most of our youth have this perception.
A religion (any religion) is a hands-on experience. Children have to be taught to be good Christians by being taught how to practice it. Indoctrination achieves nothing.
The Crucifix is the embodiment of our religion, it reminds us of His suffering and His resurrection. All us Christians must keep this in mind.
We must stand firm in our beliefs. The Crucifix stays!
Censorship: A policy or programme of censoring - the act or system of censoring.
We all live under one form of censorship or another - usually it is for the good of the majority over the minority - sometimes it is for the good of the minority over the wishes of the majority.
In a secular state moral values and rules are just as important as ever. However religion is an overriding factor in many lives, holds communities together and should be encouraged but the rules, beliefs and icons should not be forced on those of a different belief.
You mean Main Culture and other sub-cultures right ! Somewhat reminds me of Ghettos !!!
If you are living in a foreign country where the beliefs are different than yours, you cannot impose that country to change their lifestyle to please you!
If I want to show that I am a christian I have to act like one. Wearing or hanging a cross does not make you Christian.
However, should hotels/shops be stopped from displaying baby jesus in Christmas because some shoppers and tourists practice a different religion?
If a school is a church-school, or a school based on jewish/buddhist/muslim philosophies, then it is another story completely. Pupils go to these schools precisely because of their "matching" backgrounds and in those schools religious expressions should not be a problem. In fact, the ruling deals with expressions of religion in PUBLIC schools, and NOT in Church schools.
What motifs could I have?
The Curia new this would happen when the Malta - EU situation was on, everyone new that its was just a tiking time bomb, and it kept silent. So I can not belive Archbishop Cremona when he says that the Church will defend it's position on this subject because it already lost its time of play.
It all rests in the hands of the Italian Government and its appeal. And if it loses the appeal, then there is nothing anyone can do about it!
Furthur more, the new Lisbon Pact, to which we are happy about the sixt seat we gained, will furthur more give power to Brussels and furthur more in such matters, the individual countries will have less power on thie sides.
In a way we should thank God for this, because some things in the old testment are things that civilised people DO NOT live by......
My point is: Christ came to us earltly beings to change the old ways, he was revolutionary so to speek. So why do we keep going back to the old rules in our CHRISTian church?
Regarding the cross again, don't you keep a photo of your loved ones, especially the ones you can not see in this world anymore?
And another note, why should a country change its culture and religon just because other people from other countries inhibit it?
I never voted for Paul Cremona to speak for me.
All religions, according to His Grace deserve the same respect. So seeing that it would be impractical to exhibit symbols and effigies representing all religions, it is sensible to ban the lot, thus being impartial. It is all about minority rights which the local Catholic do-gooders keep ramming down our throats. If the Curia wants to keep meddling in state affairs, it must be prepared to accept the fallout.
And what has ghana got to do with it? Since when is ghana a religion? Since when is ghana imposed on schoolchildren?
As for the much touted Christian roots of Europe, this is mistaken. Europe's roots are Pagan and Christianity was an imported foreign religion which preyed on superstition and thrived on influence peddling. Europe was Pagan for millions of years while Christianity has only been around for the last two millenia.
The Curia is now reaping what it sowed.
But since there is no separation of church and state in Malta, whether or not to display a crucifix is not really an issue in this country.
What nonsense and poor comparison !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It shows what our Church is made of !
I AS A MALTESE wold not want to see crosses!
All that having been said, ... how many times have we really, but really, but really, taken notice of that tiny piece of wood hanging on a wall, many times dirtied through the passage of time and neglect? How many times have we really looked up at it and recognised Him for what He is? How many times have we insulted that Presence through blasphemy - of which we, the Maltese, stand out so much?
In other words, is that crucifix merely a cultural sign or does it have a much deeper meaning in our lives? Is it merely a flag to which we are used?
Fl-ahhar wasal iz-zmien tant mistenni mil-maggoranza tal-Maltin u nazzarda nghid l-Ewropej ukoll. Ir-religjon qed tigi relegata al posta, jigifieri fid-djar u f'postijiet privati ta min irid ihaddana.
Hadd m'ghandu xejn kontra dan, imma postiijiet publici huma publici. Hadd ma jista juri stampi makabri ta rgiel imbiccra f'post fejn ikun hemm tfal li jigu impressjonati, bhal skejjel.
Mela film tal isparar ghat tfal hazin, imma ragel imbiccer OK. Halluna.
2nd commandment :-
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments."
How does the Archbishop get around this one?
Why should non believers or people of different faiths be subjected to the belief of others in places where they cannot help but congregate.
This ruling as far as I can make out will not be imposed to Christian or other faith schools. So there is an alternative. For Religious or Government Ministers not to state that fact is being rather economical with the truth.
I thought you would say that at least in church schools crucifixes would not be removed no matter what the consequences are. U mela li tiehu kurcifiss mieghek meta tmur l-isptar!
Better still I expect that you direct us Christians to protest in the streets and surely we will be behind you. Or the time of martyrdom has finished?
The Curia is against and censors so many things which it doesn't like.
It seems the Archbishop is getting a taste of his own medicine!!!
I am an atheist but I see further than my nose. this is not just an attack on Christian tradition, it is an assault on Western culture which for better or worse developed out of Christianity. Where would art, architecture, literature, music be without the Christian, especially catholic church? If we lose or throw away our Christian heritage we throw away more than our faith. We will be discarding our culture. Worst of all, we will be forced to adopt an intollerant one instead because the vacuum left behind will have to be filled.