Wednesday, 4th November 2009 - 18:13CET
Government, Opposition, disagree with court ruling on crucifixes
The Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition this evening expressed their disagreement with a European Court of Human Rights ruling that called for crucifixes to be removed from Italian classrooms.
In Parliament, Opposition leader Joseph Muscat said that he disagreed with the decision of the court.
"To believe in a secular society does not mean doing away with religion, culture and tradition," Dr Muscat said. He asked the government for its views.
Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi said he agreed with Dr Muscat.
"I disagree with the decision completely, in the most categorical manner, it does not make sense," Dr Gonzi said, adding that it denied the rights of individuals as well as countries.
The Nationalist Party in a statement said the court should never have got involved in this issue and left it up to the individual states. The PN said it would continue to defend Christian values, even in the way they were displayed in public spaces as expressed in the crucifix.
Earlier today, Archbishop Paul Cremona also sharply criticised the ruling (see separate story).
In Italy, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said that the ruling was a nonsensical attempt to deny Europe's Christian roots.
Italy has reacted with outrage to yesterday's ruling from Strasbourg that the ubiquitous crucifixes on walls in Italian schools could disturb children who were not Christian
The conservative Prime Minister, who draws much of his support from the Roman Catholic majority, told a television show the ruling was an attempt to "deny Europe's Christian roots. This is not acceptable for us Italians".
Berlusconi pointed out that Italy has so many churches that "you only have to walk 200 metres forwards, backwards, to the right or to the left and you find a symbol of Christianity".
"This is one of those decisions that often make us doubt Europe's good sense," said the prime minister, confirming that Italy intended to appeal against the ruling once his cabinet has studied it at its weekly meeting on Friday.
The Vatican expressed "shock and sadness" at the court ruling, which was condemned across the ideological divide in a rare moment of unity among Italian politicians. Only some on the far left and atheist groups backed the ruling.
Mayors all over the country vowed to defy the ruling and there were angry reactions from Catholic strongholds abroad such as Poland. Thousands of people protested on social networking sites on the Internet.
"Europe in the third millennium is leaving us only Halloween pumpkins while depriving us of our most beloved symbols," said Vatican number two, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone.
Italy has been in the throes of debate on how to deal with a growing population of immigrants, mostly Muslims, and the ruling could become another battle cry for the government's policy drive to crack down on new arrivals.
Mara Bizzotto, a European parliamentarian for Berlusconi's anti-immigrant coalition partner, the Northern League, asked why the European court had taken action against the crucifix but did not ban Muslim symbols such as "veils, burqas and niqabs".
The case was brought by an Italian national, Soile Lautsi, who complained that her children had to attend a public school in northern Italy which had crucifixes in every room, thereby denying her the right to give them a secular education.
Two Italian laws dating from the 1920s, when the Fascists were in power, state that schools must display crucifixes.
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Comments
"Malta,dont make the same mistakes as Britain,
A Britain that is now like a volcano,ready to erupt ,with the non Muslim population,who have now had enough,being told what they can and cant do,say and not say,by the followers of Islam."
What a load of drivel. Do you even live in the UK? I do, and know of no one who's about to erupt or feels oppressed by muslims here.
I never said that there was anybody who was so brazen that he would not allow to me “to practice (my) faith ?????”. Therefore it is not I that need to ”switch brains back on”. What some atheist commentators are actually doing all the time is to try to prevent us from living our Christianity, in our Catholic country, without being badgered by such comments are yours!
You are obviously concerned about what got "put" into my head but not about what is being put into the heads of school children. I am not qualified to get children to "close their eyes" so that I can conduct some kind of an experiment on them.
If the crucifix has become an "integral part" of the classroom to the point that it has become "invisible", it is then logical that children are no longer staring at it. Children know, at every second they spend in the classroom during a critical stage of their development, that the crucifix is there. What they do not know is why is it there and who put it there.
This is not a farce, and there is no Pandora's box here. This is about putting Gonzi on notice that the time of brainwashing children with the crucifix symbol during a very early stage of their development is coming to an end. As of now, it is up to Maltese parents to decide whether they want their children to be stared upon all they by a symbol that the State is choosing for their children without their approval.
What has science got to do with it? The usual "x is good y is bad"? If you think I'll catch your bait, I won't: Science doesn't have anything to do with religion.
So you will defend your god/jesus (notice the lowercase) by actively going against what He preached (war, anger, hate)?
At least when I'll die, I'll be in peace that I didn't pester anyone with things they needn't see.
The cross is a personal symbol, I'll make sure it will be besides my bed...but not hanging on a wall.
I agree with you that “we do not need another reason to spread animosity” – so, let us leave things as they are with the crucifix on our classroom walls. This is the will of more than 80% of the Maltese as expressed in The Times current poll. You have no right to dismiss that as any “narrow sighted” view of people desiring to “raise the banner and march off to war”. That is the desire of the great majority of Maltese who desire that they be allowed to practise their official religion in peace. It is the legitimate concern of a great majority for whom the crucifix is much more than “a piece of wood/metal” to be carried inside us. Incidentally, how do you expect us to do that without a fatal result?
It's Malta, what do I care. Keep living as cavemen as you did since Ggantija was built.
Christ said he will send non believers in hell. why would such a loving and mercifully god send people to hell ?. talking about violence religion, please just learn history and look at what dark ages Christianity did to people and then talk.
"x'qal hazin Kristu ? li thobb lill-ghajrek daqs lilek inniffsek"
"Jippruvaw il-musulmana jnehhu xi statwa armata fil-festa ha jispiccaw bhat-Tork qabilhom"
u int bihsiebek tibda gwera kontra religjon ohra umbad tghid li ghandek thobb lill-gharjek ? zewg kontradizjonijiet f'sentenza wahda.
Matthew 5:39: "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."
My apologies for any offense but most of the comments here are so ridiculous it beggars belief!!!
Regards
Mark Shaw
Removing the Crucifix means the beginning of something else and we all know what this is.
Some other religion must be very happy about this decision but we ought to defend what we really believe in till the very end. Other religions do, so why not us?
On the other hand, if the EU says we have to remove the Crucifix (hopefully not) what happens then? Do we get a hefty fine because we do not comply?
Things change, do they? Did anybody see this coming?
Thabbilx rasek siehbi. Iggield u tqabad kemm tiflah! Jien ser inkompli mmur ghax xoghol ha nhallas il kont tad dawl sadanittant!
.....in the end, we asked for it.
You can follow,believe in what ever religion,you choose,that is your choice.I have no problem with that,with one exception ,The followers of Islam,the biggest threat to Europe,since the Nazi party
You must fight this banning of the crucifix,tooth and nail,to allow this to happen ,will open the flood gates,another step towards the Islamification,of Europe
One example of many,of how the Muslim population of the U.K.are getting the upper hand,their every wish,demand being pampered to
A hospital,in the U.K houses a prayer room,open to all religions
Muslims,were making use of said prayer room,and had covered a picture of the Virgin Mary.
A hospital worker,noticed this,and asked them,to uncover the picture.These Muslims reported him to the authorities, saying he had interrupted them,whilst they were at prayer,the hospital worker was sacked on the spot,for what those in charge deemed as racism.
Malta,dont make the same mistakes as Britain,
A Britain that is now like a volcano,ready to erupt ,with the non Muslim population,who have now had enough,being told what they can and cant do,say and not say,by the followers of Islam
Having said that, being a believer or not, our Christian background is part of our heritage and something we should all be proud of. We are what were because of what we (European Christians) have gone through during the last couple of thousand years.
A time may arrive when we will be legally forced to remove the "Maltese Cross" ? After all, it's origins cannot be more Christian. Should the George Cross be removed as well, due to it's cruciform shape? Who will be the objectors to our Christian symbolism? Will they be the multiplying unwelcome Illegal immigrants, or will it be some European bureaucrat who's only faith is materialism? .
I am not so worried out the faith as I am about our culture. There will come a time when we have to stand up and be counted.
It bears repeating.This State is,or should be secular.It is there to serve all of the People,all of the time,without distinction and equal to all,irrespective of differing opinions and that includes Religion.
And whoever put it into your head that pupils spend all day staring at the crucifix in class?! I guarantee you that if you tell the children to close their eyes and then ask them if there is a cross on the wall ALL of them will tell you that they never noticed. It's become such an integral part of the class setup that the crucifix is well nigh invisible. The children don't even notice the charts hung up by the teacher let alone the crucifix. And speaking of charts, do the teachers have to dispense of those charts relating to religion too? Where will all this farce stop? Will the children be forbidden to sing the national anthem? will we have to remove the george cross from our flag now for different reasons than those political? Will we nt be allowed to say "Jekk Alla jrid:" or "Alla hares"? What about the making of the sign of the cross? And how about the prayer before lunch? It goes on and on like pandora's box.
Both the Old and New Testaments make it very clear that we are to treat foreigners like family. Sorry, but I couldn't find a word about crosses in public places.
Though I am aware that the overwhelming majority of Maltese are upset about this ruling, civil society is made up of people with differing opinions, and I for one happen to be a Maltese is who is neither outraged nor feel threatened by the court ruling. Even without a crucifix in class people can still continue professing their faith, and Catholicism can still be part of their culture. If anything, secularisation leads to an internalisation of faith to the point that it becomes stronger. Furthermore, people should also stop extrapolating by alluding that the next step will be the removal of niches or churches. They are different matters.
Maybe both Government and Opposition are illuminated to agree on other issues!
"When you're in Rome, do as the Romans do"
So I pretend that ALL visitors / tourists / immigrants / illegal immigrants, accept ALL that makes a country unique!
If I am thirsty I'm grateful for a glass of water, and NOT demand a glass of soda!
The Rightwing blames the church and government for this problem because they support a multicultural society ( pro-immigration) with strong vigour. They have gone as far as calling the Maltese people fascists, racists and bigots for five years.
They have never defended the nation or the interests of the people and implemented a political policy of intergration, without party approval. They control the media, to ban disapproval and sneer at honest Maltese people, who have been concerned with the situation.
The Maltese voters are also to blame because they have voted for people that have cheated, abused and deceived them. The 6000 ( IE & AN) voters that voted to stop this political madness, are the only people that voted with their eyes open to the dangers we face.
A federal state is our only option left because we don't want to live side by side with irresponsible people. The Rightwing will join a larger version of Europe, that defends its culture, to keep law and order with the peoples approval, backed by our superior forces.
Stephen Farrugia
( Sliema)
Bhala poplu ma ghandniex nibqghu passivi imma niehdu azzjoni, nitkellmu kif ghamlu l-politici taghna. Dawn huma denji li jirraprezentawna. Imma l-media wkoll trid taghti sehmna billi l-kliem "Komunita Nisranija" tnehhiha min hemm u tghid, "ahna"....min meta l-hawn sirna Komunita Kattolika...meta ahna ghalkemm kultant bl-iskossi ghar-ragunijiet varji - xorta nibqghu poplu nisrani u kattoliku.
Ma jghidulniex issa biex inehhu s-Salib li hemm fuq is-Salib ta' l-Gholja.
As far as I can tell (at least according to this article), the case wasn't even started by a Muslim even though most opinions expressed here seem to disagree.
This is the way these things start. In England a nurse lost her job because she wore a necklace which had a cross. The same thing happened to a travel clark who also wore a cross. The funny thing is that people object to the cross and do not object to people who go about with their head coverd because of their religion.
It does not hold any water that the lady who started all this was , we are told , a Finn. We do not know if in fact she is a Muslim She was not Italian and had no right to dictate her views on the Italians.
The UK may be regarded by some as a "post Christian" society, but in the De La Salle school I attended there we had crucifixes everywhere as a constant reminder of what we believe in. We even had a Sikh student in my day and no changes were made for nor requested by him. The only possible "offence" is one which those desperate to be politically correct may conjour up in their minds.
At Gatwick Airport they have chapels which accomodate all religions, in a manner acceptable to everybody. In Malta the recognised religion is catholicism and so the chapel at MIA reflects that.
Charles Sammut below peddles the old stuff about religion. The mere fact that he harps on about prehistoric religions says it all! He should wake up to the fact that the Church has moved on. Digging up past sins is a retrograde move.
But then you cannot please all of the people all of the time!
@Joe Grima
Jippruvaw il-musulmana jnehhu xi statwa armata fil-festa ha jispiccaw bhat-Tork qabilhom. Dawk jaghmlu l-arja ma minn huwa politically correct imma l-malti rasu iebsa u fejn tidhol il-familja u religjon inkwiet ikollok mieghu.
Does anyone knows for what is Silvio Berlusconi most popular for ? He is the unique person in a civilized country who has a monopoly of his country's media (and those who doesn't agree with him, are always threated or kick out of their programs). He is accused of paying Tangenti nearly to everyone he met, Corrupting everyone who can be corrupted. Not to mention his friends associated with the Mafia. In fact to get free of all this, he tried even to introduce the immunity law only for himself (Something that the Corte Costituzionale rejected)
And most important, he is also a DIVORCED man & is SEPARATING with this 2nd wife because his hobby was to be surrounded by MUCH younger girls (Obviously by paying them) & before this story was made public by his 2nd wife itself, he played always the part of a SAINT.
But I bet that the pope will be happy the same of his alliance in this matter !!!
Europe will be ruled by Muslims so what's your point ? you liberals contribute to our western downfall. i know you're a Muslim and i respect that but you have to respect the Majority's beliefs. just to let you know i am not catholic.
This is a decision that should be lauded ... what happens instead? the 2 political parties proclaim themselves against it and everyone else follows. What a farce this country has become !
The opposition is concerned about removing crucifxes from classrooms but is accomplice in accepting warships in our grand harbour in breach of the constitution...another good reason not to vote!
However, for MEPA and for some other interested parties, the fact that a magistrate has decided that it was o.k. for the chairman and a member of the DCC to hold private meetings with an MP whom they thought had no connection with an application (so they stated), then, such a practice has been sanctioned (to use a word that is in vogue). Thus, MEPA has felt fit to issue a statement condemning its auditor for branding such a practice as illegal because, according to it, he testified before the court which decided that such meetings were organized regularly.
The moral of the story is that if a practice is undertaken regularly, it becomes legitimate and though it is o.k. to dissent from a decision of the ECHR, a magistrate's decision is sanctimonious in nature and cannot be challenged.
Isn't it funny that constitutional court decisions striking down laws get ignored by our parliament?
The MPs reflect the vast Catholic majority in Malta. No interfering foreign court shall be allowed to interfere with our religion, religious symbols and culture. Foreigners who don't like it are free to leave. No one sent for them. As for the very tiny local minority, you are a minority and a minority never imposes its will on the vast majority.
Raymond Sammut Are children trained by their parents to stare at the crucifix and be afraid of it?
David A. Agius No David, we shall not bend backwards because something may bother someone. If they don't like it they can go to another school.
What's your problem?
If you're not Catholic or do not practise, you have every right, but for our sake who do (with all our mistakes) pls respect our opinion. If you dont like a crucifix hung up, just look another way!
This is about the crucifix in the classroom and has nothing to do with Muslims. The case in the European Court of Human Rights was initiated by a non-Muslim Italian national.
I just hope that if a similar case arises in Malta, they will not tolerate any such ruling.
As for us Christians in Malta I hope that we will not accept this too.
Malta is rooted in Christianity, and as long as we remain faithful to our Lord, no one will ever the chance to change that!
It will not happen.
United in disagreement with ruing on crucifixes.
Berlusconi should be ashamed to even mention Churches and Christianity.
What "rights" is Gonzi referring to? The right of the child in the classroom is to receive an education that would prepare them for life in the community, and not to stare at a cross nailed to the wall in front of them all day. It is Gonzi's stance that does not make sense. Gonzi has no right to force children in the classroom to stare at a cross. That cross should never have been in the classroom. It's rightful place is in the church.
we should stop and think things out before we shout the Middle Ages war cry "In the symbol of the cross we win".
Being secular does not mean being an atheist or non-religious. Only Muslim countries have sharia--that is, their laws are religious and go hand in hand with their scriptures.
Being in secular society, one can practice the religion of his heart.
Objection to the crucifixes come more fro jehovah Witnesses than from Muslims.
Christianity is a foreign religion to Europe and was the cause of much bloodshed and repression. What Christianity did was to hijack and monopolise 'goodness' and instil a sense of guilt in its followers to keep them in check. This can be seen from the narrow mindedness of some people's comments here. They are unable to think outside their little glass box, ghax imorru l-infern. They dare not question Christ's teachings, even if some of his teachings make little sense. What doesn't make sense becomes a mystery. What is a pain in the backside becomes sacrifice. Going against nature is interpreted as god's will. Misery and weakness are glorified.
I dare not go any further.
Will this mostly muslim country be made to remove the cresent from it's flag (a symbol of islam)?
My personal opinion is NOT to remove either crusifixes, cresents or stars of david.
Are you serious? In an age when everyone today has at his hands all the evidence that so many holy wars were nothing but economic and power wars fully sponsored by the Vatican?????
In this age of extremisim where Muslims have been regarded as threats do we now have to start looking around for insane christians????
If you're christian, show it by example and by following teachings to show people the good of Christianity. In another comment on a different timesofmalta.com thread, a reader quoted the bible where it is stated in plain words not to create idols!
If according to your teachings Jesus died for the good of mankind, would he have really wanted all this fuss?????
My opinion is, as long as no one is bothered with a cross in the classroom, it's fine, it can be there. IF it bothers someone 's beliefs /opinion then yes, remove it.
Government and Opposition manage to agree to disagree. Thanks for your efforts, but as far I know Church and State should have been separated AEONS ago!
But unfortunately, this was bound to come up, and after it settles, if it settles in our favour, it will eventually come up again and again.
The timing for this issue helps both Gonzi and Berlusconi. The former will have Peoples attention deflected from the budget’s surprises, while the latter is deflecting Italians people’s attention from own many scandals.
We should always remember and note that, the court is ruled by none Muslims. The Crucufix’s was made an issue not by any African or a Muslim immigrants.
Let's embark on a crusade!
Oh please, give us a break...
ask these ultra inteligent beings " would any of us dare to even attempt to harm in any way our beloved Mothers' and FATHERS' AND NANNOS' AND NANNAS' sentiments?
In my opinion Christ, Son of God is the greatest pillar ever of social integration and His teachings allowed the best overall circumstances for Nations' building and integrity along with the Ten Commandements His Father gave to Moses for us to follow
Strong Family strong COMMUNITY Hands Off the Crucifix please if you do not wish to abide Leave others who wish to harbour the CRUCIFIX Soul searching Qualities alone
Animal+Soul = human- soul=Animal Please go on tell them Mr (Lion grrr) Berlusconi!!!
Apart from the fact that the question was ruled Out of Order it does seem that non-belivers are rubbing their hands and exalted with great joy.
Europe has become a Godless continent. This is confirmed when the Treaty was being drawn up where no reference to God was written in this document.
God forbid if such a decision would be imposed on other countries.
I just give one example if some domiciled foreigner would object to the pictures of Queen Elizabeth in the UK , What would be the decision of the British Government, if the Eurpopean Court so decides that the pictures of the Queen would hurt the sentiments of certain people?